Ex Garda admits to 'not complying with rules' in murder trial
A retired detective superintendent has told a murder trial that he did not comply with regulations when interviewing one of the suspects.
PJ Browne was being cross examined about a suspect, who has been granted immunity in exchange for testifying against the four defendants on trial at the Central Criminal Court.
Father-of-two Bernard Hempenstall (aged 28) from Park Terrace, The Coombe; Peter Kenny (aged 28) of McCarthy’s Terrace, Rialto; Damien Johnston (aged 27) of Cashel Avenue, Crumlin; and Christopher Zambra (aged 35) of Galtymore Road, Drimnagh have all pleaded not guilty to murdering a father-of-three in a Dublin pub.
John Carroll (aged 33) was shot dead while socialising in Grumpy Jack’s Pub in the Coombe just after 9.30pm on February 18, 2009.
Mr Browne agreed with Michael O’Higgins SC, defending Damien Johnston, that he should have video recorded his interviews with a fifth suspect, Joseph O’Brien, who admitted being heavily involved in the murder but was never charged.
“I didn’t do what I was supposed to do,” said Mr Browne, agreeing that the law required that interviews with suspects should be recorded on camera.
“I didn’t comply with regulations while Joseph O’Brien was in custody,” he said.
The court had already heard that when O’Brien was arrested at Dublin Port two nights after the murder, he requested a private meeting with the then detective superintendent and that this was granted.
Instead of being brought to an interview room as would usually be the case, he was taken to Det. Super. Browne’s office in Pearse Street Garda Station.
“It’s not up to the citizen to opt out of the statutory requirements, is it? The citizen in custody doesn’t call the shots and request private meetings with the guards, do they?” asked Mr O’Higgins.
“They don’t,” replied Mr Browne.
Mr O’Higgins asked him what a private meeting meant.
“I took it that he wanted to see me off camera,” explained Mr Browne.
Mr O’Higgins asked what would be wrong with telling O’Brien that he would be treated like every other murder suspect, be taken to an interview room, receive legal advice and be interrogated by gardaí.
“Nothing,” replied Mr Browne.
“How many other murder suspects can get private meetings with the top man and bring about a situation where they’re never charged with such a terrible crime?” asked the barrister.
“I’m not aware,” answered Mr Browne.
Mr Browne said that O’Brien wouldn’t tell the gardaí anything until the Witness Protection Programme was explained to him, but he did not agree with Mr O’Higgins that the suspect was "laying down terms and conditions".
He agreed that O’Brien was brought to his office again the following morning for another private meeting.
“He wanted to speak to me in private again,” he explained.
“This is the most farcical aspect of your testimony, that the murderer gets to dictate how it’s done,” said Mr O’Higgins.
“Maybe you were more anxious to stay off camera than he was,” suggested the barrister.
“I had nothing to hide,” replied Mr Browne.
When asked, Mr Browne explained that the video recording of interviews was brought into law to protect both prisoner and garda, following allegations of improper conduct.
“I don’t think Joseph O’Brien is making any allegations against me,” he added.
“But Mr O’Brien’s account of what happened is completely at variance with yours,” said Mr O’Higgins, pointing out that O’Brien said the gardaí introduced the topic of the Witness Protection Programme and only after he had given his statement.
Mr O’Higgins put it to him that they began recording the interviews after "the story was got straight". Mr Browne said he did not like that use of words.
Mr Browne agreed that he was the one who brought up the issue of immunity, but said that this was in the context of the Witness Protection Programme. He said he raised it, explaining that he couldn’t grant immunity, so that O’Brien would be under no illusions.
“I didn’t consider it an opening for him,” he said.
“Well you were wrong, because what you didn’t consider an opening has resulted in him not being charged at all,” remarked Mr O’Higgins. “The man made a full confession to being heavily involved in a murder and was never charged.”
The trial continues before Mr Justice Barry White and a jury of eight men and four women.
